| Author |
Topic |
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2005 : 13:40:47
|
If you are new to this board please read this first
(click on this sentence)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings:
I am new to this forum and happy to have found it. A brief bio: I am a 55 y.o. white male attorney, married 32 years and have 2 children. My daughter, age 25, graduated law school in May, '05 and recently passed the Bar Exam. She lives and works in Washington,D.C. My son, age 23, is pursuing his MBA in San Diego and is a surfer dude. My wife is a public school teacher. I reside in Norfolk/Virginia Beach, VA.
My first experience with bupe was in the mid 1990's in a residential drug treatment program. My reaction was miraculous. More on that in a moment. Unfortunately, I only received the med for three days. Those were the three most normal days for me in 20, yes, twenty years.
I sought treatment as soon as I was discharged. I also resumed drug use (vics, oxy, etc.). I consumed an average of 40 extra stregth vics/day and as many oxys as I could get my hands on.
I learned of a doctor in Bethesda, MD. who was mixing bupe into jello shooters and was successfully treating a number of opiates addicted patients. I immediately contacted this doc and obtained an appointment. I had learned about him in a large article in The Washington Post. Unfortunately, that article triggered a visit by the DEA and he was threatened with loss of his medical license and, therefore, regretfully, he had discharged all of his addiction patients and could not treat me.
I remained an addict for four more years. Four more miserable and unnecessary years during which I came close to suicide.
I have had an additional problem since my mid-twenties. I suffered from unrelenting, ever worsening depression. My life-long disease of depression triggered my addiction which started in my mid-forties and worsened and progressed along with my depression.
I had a psychotic episode during the summer/fall of 2001 and was involuntarily committed to a mental hospital. To make this long story shorter: While hospitalized my doctor told me that ALL opiate addicts had a deficiency in the brain chemical dopamine. I was astonished that in twenty years of psychotherapy and a decade of treatment for opiate addiction not a single doctor or care provider had told me that. I asked the doctor what meds were available for a dopamine deficiency. The answer was only one drug, Wellbutrin, but that it was an extremely mild dopaminergic, meaning it only stimulated dopamine very slightly.
As usual, I immediately resumed my addiction upon release, but this time I resumed my search for buprenorphine. I also tried Wellbutrin. Usual result, increasing depression and opiates use. Then,a miracle! Suboxone was approved in October, and I was released in January. I began a frantic search for Suboxone and no doctors in my area and elsewhere would treat me. My own addiction doc dismissed the idea, saying, "That's just trading one addiction for another." I was livid and discovered that ignorance and bigotry about opiate addiction was widespread, even among addiction doctors. I had also insisted during all those years of my addiction that depression was at its core. That I was comorbid in that respect. No one ever listened or took me seriously.
Finally, I found a Sub doc and my addiction instantly disappeared AS DID MY DEPRESSION! I still take 10 mgs/day of Suboxone and will for the rest of my life. It is my "insulin". The disappearance of depression was even more significant for me than was the relief from addiction. I had been an addict for 7-8 yrs., but a depressive for thirty or more years.
Now, for my question: Has anyone else had a similar experience with regard to suboxone and depression?
I am writing a book on this experience and have an agent who is actively seeking a publisher. I also have started my own, small lobbying effort to have suboxone approved for the treatment of depression. It is an effective treatment for both addiction and depression because of its effect on the brain chemical dopamine. More technically, it has a dramatic effect on the brain's endogenous opiate system.
There are millions of people uselessly suffering from depression in addition to those suffering from addiction.
Your help and information, PLEASE! THANK YOU AND BEST OF LUCK.
Cheers,
Robert D. Eisen
6836 Fordwick Dr.
Norfolk, VA 23518
(757) 853-5995
(757) 672-8082 (preferred number)
email: leeglegle@aol.com |
Edited by - leeglegle on 01/15/2006 20:45:57 |
|
|
Jake
Senior Member
USA
190 Posts |
|
|
TIM
Administrator
USA
2889 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 13:56:53
|
Welcome Robert.
Dr. Walter Ling in California has done extensive studies on bupe for depression.
"Buprenorphine has also been found to relieve refractory depression, but this particular use has never been approved by FDA. Refractory depression is depression that has not responded to other treatments. Some patients, who suffered from depression in the past, have experienced relief of symptoms on buprenorphine. (Bodkin,1995)"
see (http://www.naabt.org/faq_answers.cfm#10) |
 |
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 14:36:45
|
Thanks Jake and Tim.
Jake, I see where you were posting w/ Connie. I just sent her a post. Is that what these are called? Posts? In any case, your info. is helpful and gratefully received.
Tim, thanks for the connection to the Cali. doc. I will be following up on that ASAP. I have interviewed and/or met with over a dozen docs who participated in the clinical studies and many, somewhat reluctantly,have connected suboxone and depression. What IS apparent is that all sub docs are scared to death of the DEA and are very reluctant to discuss off-label use of Suboxone. However, my experience is that most addicts have another, accompanying mental illness.
I have a mountain of information I have gathered during research for my book, but there is much I don't know. So, again, thanks for the responses.
My biggest handicap in "posting" is that I do not type except w/two fingers, so it's time-consuming and frustrating to reply and post all that I want to say. |
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 14:57:53
|
Yes, buprenorphine has a positive effect on depression, and there are studies around that show it can be useful for people who have depression, especially those who are refractory to standard antidepressant treatments.
I think that now that the word is out about buprenorphine treatment perhaps others won't have to go through the same thing you did. Change does not come easily. I was with an addiction treatment program when Bupe came out, and I wanted to get bupe treatment started there, but I ran into conflicts with the addiction counselors who were reluctant to give up their 'abstinence is best' concept/philosophy and then had no help from the administration about the use of maintenance drugs. This is in an area with a very serious heroin problem...inner city. So then I chose to offer bupe treatment on my own, and incredibly, I have had a number of patients who are high level professionals who have become addicted to opioids. Generally these are people with jobs and families, who somehow, some way have fallen into the addiction trap. Not a great place to be, and many need help...in my opinion, they are probably an unrecognized, underserved population.
Bottom line is that bupe can be useful as an antidepressant, but the usual antidepressants should be tried first, because they do not cause dependance. Bupe, being a partial opioid agonist, will result in a dependency that then has to be dealt with, and thus should be used only after serious consideration of all the options.
|
|
|
|
gwen
Senior Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:08:05
|
welcome robert! i started bupe in june and have noticed that it is also helping my depression (connected to my addiction to Oxys). i had been prescribed different anti-depressants off and on over the years, but nothing worked as well as the bupe is working. i also am a big believer in the therapeutic process in conjunction with the bupe. i work with one-on-one with a psychiatrist and attend group meetings. i think these also help greatly because of the total honesty i now have with my dr. and in this group.
yours is a very inspiring story.
peace-
gwen |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:13:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caroline
Yes, buprenorphine has a positive effect on depression, and there are studies around that show it can be useful for people who have depression, especially those who are refractory to standard antidepressant treatments.
I think that now that the word is out about buprenorphine treatment perhaps others won't have to go through the same thing you did. Change does not come easily. I was with an addiction treatment program when Bupe came out, and I wanted to get bupe treatment started there, but I ran into conflicts with the addiction counselors who were reluctant to give up their 'abstinence is best' concept/philosophy and then had no help from the administration about the use of maintenance drugs. This is in an area with a very serious heroin problem...inner city. So then I chose to offer bupe treatment on my own, and incredibly, I have had a number of patients who are high level professionals who have become addicted to opioids. Generally these are people with jobs and families, who somehow, some way have fallen into the addiction trap. Not a great place to be, and many need help...in my opinion, they are probably an unrecognized, underserved population.
Bottom line is that bupe can be useful as an antidepressant, but the usual antidepressants should be tried first, because they do not cause dependance. Bupe, being a partial opioid agonist, will result in a dependency that then has to be dealt with, and thus should be used only after serious consideration of all the options.
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:44:51
|
Caroline:
Thanks for your response. It's informative and your knowledge and experience concerning both addiction and refractory depression is obvious. Your observation about addiction counselors and their "our way or the highway" attitude is precisely what I was railing against during more than a futile decade of treatment. Sub has proven there is more than one way to approach addiction and it is my "outsider" impression that treatment providers are starting to get the message.
You appear to be an "insider" and I am curious about that. You refer to providing bupe tratment and to the high level professionals you've treated. You also referred to an inner city environment. Can you give me a few particulars and steer me to credible information on "high level professionals" and addiction treatment modalities for that subset of addicts and how it compares with your efforts on behalf of the less empowered and fortunate. Thanks.
Again, any info. is helpful and hopefully will be magnified by my lobbying and literary efforts. I have dedicated myself to the issues of addiction and mental health and am starting to meet with small successes politically and medically. |
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 07:53:48
|
| I guess what I was trying to point out was that difficulty with access to treatment cuts across all socio-economic classes. However, since you ask specifically about professionals, for this group the biggest impediment to seeking treatment seems to be concern about strict confidentiality. Now, with Bupe treatment being available, a person can simply find it at a doctor's office, making access easier, completely confidential, and less time-consuming. On more than one occasion, professional-type patients have said, 'If this ever gets out, my career will be ruined.' Fortunately, because of bupe treatment, there appears to be less reluctance now to seek help, though as we know, available treatment slots are limited, affecting access to treatment for everyone. The 30 patient per provider rule definitely needs to go. |
|
|
|
gwen
Senior Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 09:54:46
|
hi all, i also believe the strict confidentiality reaches past the professional world. i chose bupe treatment because i didn't want anyone to know. my husband eventually figured it out, but my kids, my family, friends, business clients didn't. (i'm not a high-level professional by any means!) and going into rehab for even as little as a week to 'detox' was not an option for me, neither was going to a methadone clinic. so, the bupe treatment was my only choice. and i don't regret it for a minute.
peace- |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2005 : 12:19:08
|
Thank you Tim, Jake,Caroline and Gwen for taking the time to respond.
I've been in rehab facilities @5-6 times. The first 3 or 4 were in a large Va. Bch psychiatric hospital w/ a seperate wing for drug/alchohol treatment. The first time was when I received buprenex injections which gave me great hope. Other than the injections for three days of a 10 day stay, the treatment was the standard cookie-cutter approach which, for me, was more than unhelpful, it aggravated the problem. Upon release I began my unsuccessful search for bupe. This was @ 1994-95.
During the next 6 years, I had four more admissions as my twin beasts of depression and addiction kept growing and consuming me. With each admission,I begged for bupe detox with no success. My addiction doc. was viewing my requests, which became increasingly strident, as mere drug seeking behavior. Frustration beyond description. I rec'd only the one size fits all 12 step approach. I say that w/o condemning AA/NA programs. They have helped a lot of peeople. For me, they were counter-productive.
Now, to the point. I also went to treatment centers in L.A. and Florida. I was desperate and increasingly spiraling downward until I finally became psychotic. Best thing that ever happened to me.
Finally, in January, 2003, while in a Fla. facility, I was told by their doctor that ALL opiate addicts' brains had a problem w/ dopamine production and/or reuptake. That same doctor went to a national Addiction Doctors conference while I was there and promised the entire group that he would advise of any new treatment developments. Ironically, Suboxone had just been approved three months before this conference and hit the pharmacies while I was in treatment. This doctor, Dr. Beach, the bastard, said nothing.
I went home and due to my own intensive research, I discovered sub treatment in early March, 2003. During those three months I was in two outpatient groups at home, one for professionals, the other for the general poulation. NEVER was sub treatment mentioned and when I began treatment my doc refused to continue to treat me. Another bastard.
My experience with treatment facilities ranged from state facilities, private hospitals with a cross-section of patients, and one very expensive, elite and private facility. That one was the worst. My best experiences were in the facilities that had a cross-section of the addiction/mental health population. I learned only two things from all of these different facilities.
First, if you are in a strange town, a rehab facility is the best place to go to find out where and how to score. Every time I was released, I had learned of new places and dealers to feed my ever-increasing consumption.
Second, a very significant number of my fellow patients suffered from depression as well as addiction. This was certainly true for me.
No matter what approach I took, or how I tried to explain the connection between my depression and my addiction, I was invariably told I was still denying my addiction and I had better get with the program. I was so frustrated during one of the hospital stays, I left AMA (against medical advice), a decision which curtailed my insurance coverage on subsequent admissions.
The rest is a happy history. My depression, never mind addiction, disappeared in a few days after starting suboxone treatment. I've never looked back, except to spread the word and try to build a coalition of people and organizations to push for FDA approval of sub treatment for depression when appropriate. I know from personal experience a large number of depressive/addicts who have had the same experience as my own. I also have a small, but growing, list of physicians who agree.
Reckitt Benkiser, the manufacturer of Suboxone/Subutex, doesn't want to go near this subject matter for fear that they would be perceived as promoting "off label" use of suboxone. This fear is a complicated subject and is understandable, given the tortured history of its efforts for FDA approval for addiction.
It's amazing how scared and uneducated even the educated are. It's the effect of fear of the DEA combined with general ignorance and bigotry.
Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah was a significant moving force behind the approval of suboxone for addiction. He's an arch conservative in his political views, but is very open-minded and forward thinking about mental health and addiction issues. At the other end of the political spectrum, he is joined by Sen. Ted Kennedy.
The issue of suboxone and depression is now on their radar screens and I am stepping up my lobbying efforts toward them and other sympathetic members of Congress and the federal bureaucracy.
This is why I am reaching out to this community for support and information. ANY help and ANY information is a treasure. ANY observations and ideas will be gratefully received. Thanks for the responses I have already received. It has been productive. the Tim, thanks for the reference to Dr. Ling in California.
Thanks to everyone. We're all in this together as evidenced by what I have discovered on this site as well as elsewhere in cyberspace. Peace and cheers,
Robert
|
Edited by - leeglegle on 02/24/2006 23:09:01 |
|
|
|
the Snarkbandit
Starting Member
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 01:52:26
|
I to am new this forum and am shocked to see people who share the same point of view towards the use of subutex/suboxone! I am a 22 years old and live in Arizona. I moved to Phoenix 2 years ago and that is where my opiate addiction began. It started with oxys but soon progreessed to heroin because of its price and availability. I used for a year, and new I needed to quit.
To cut the story short subutex basically saved my life. There is no way I could have kicked using methodone, I would have gone right back to dope. Luckily I have a very intelligent friend who told me about subutex. Thank god i also found a doctor who was understanding and not "in it for the money". I cannot thank my doctor enough. If i had no money he wouldnt charge, if i stumble he understands.
Anyways i havnt used in a year and still take 8mg of subutex a day.
Now about the depression. I have always had a problem with depression and anxiety running my life, even before I ever touched drugs. I have lost jobs, dropped out of school, lost girl friends, and created many problems with my family due to my mental state. I tried using zoloft but something just wosnt right about the way i felt. When I quit taking the zoloft my depression went through the roof.I new anti depressants like that was not the answer.
I never thought I would find something that has worked as good as the subutex. All of MY cravings for ALL DRUGS HAVE DISAPPEARED. i quit drinking, smoking and for once in my life not plaqued by anxiety. I feel better and am more capable of completing every day tasks than i ever have been. Like Robert posted, my disappearanse of the depression is more of a relief than that of the adddiction.
One of my closest friends has the same problems with depression and has taken every drug in the book. Nothing seems to work for him, it actually just makes the problem worse. Ive told him about this alternate treatment but he is weary because of its origin. I would like to know what I can to do help this cause.
THANKS AND FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME @ ELITEONLINE@CABLEONE.NET
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 21:14:44
|
I'll be in touch ASAP. Probably tomorrow or Friday. This drug is a life changing experience. Trust me, I know. I tried every treatment known for my depression, which led to my use of opiates.
Tell your friend to hang in there a few more days. This forum will step in and save him, too. He's approaching a cure. All he needs is not to be in denial about any of his problems and keep an open mind.
I've freely disclosed my true name, address and phone number because I communicate much better and more effectively by talking one-on-one with those in need. So, give me a little time and we'll hopefully talk directly.
Drugs weren't killing me. Depression was. Like you ALL of my substance abuse problems almost immediately disappeared after starting suboxone therapy. That includes, nicotine, any opiate I could get, marihuana and all the others. Once the depression left, all those problems left with it.
One suggestion: Read as many posts on this site as you can. You'll see a pattern develop and learn a great deal about addiction you didn't know before.
YOU AND YOUR FRIEND ARE NOT ALONE!
In the menatime, if you want to writ me outside this forum my email adress is: leeglegle@aol.com and my cell phone number is (757) 672-8082.
Peace, love and all the best,
Rpbert |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 21:56:03
|
Tim. Thank you!
The Dr. Walter Ling connection is a gold mine of information.
I previously spoke of writing a book in another post on this website. It is about my experience with depression and addiction.
It also adddresses the backward thinking that applies to addiction treatment. Modern medicine is knocking on the door to cures for all forms of addiction. These addictions are merely diseases of the brain, no different than kidney disease or heart failure, diabetes or any number of other "physical" diseases.
Our brains are just another body organ like our kidneys, heart,liver pancreas or any other organ. It is time to stop thinking of the brain as some mysterious thing inside of our head. It is inside our body, just like our heart, kidneys, pancreas, stomach, lungs, etc. It can be diseased or out of whack just like them.
Modern medicine and, more importantly, modern thought, without the shame of thinking about so-called "mental" illness any differently from "physical" illness, is leading us into a brave new world where there will be no distinction between mental illness and physical illness.
In short, we are, in the treatment of "mental" illness, where we were in the treatmnt of "physical" illness two-hundred years ago. This is coming to an end very soon.
I'm proud that my "mental" illness of depression was succesfully treated by suboxone, thereby also curing my other disease of addiction.
Addiction is truly a disease. No one should be ashamed of being an addict any nore than a diabetic should be ashamed of his diabetes!
Any thoughts by anyone else?
Tim, thanks again, and thanks to all of you who have already taken the time to talk about your disease of addiction as being accompanied by some other "mental" disease such as depression.
There is an overwhelming amount of medical research that connects deppression and addiction. PLEASE let me know your stories. Hopefully, by relating those stories on this site, you may save many others from the suffering all of you have gone through.
Thank you, peace, love, and all the best,
Robert
|
|
|
|
TIM
Administrator
USA
2889 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:00:03
|
I agree with you 100% getting the word out to the rest of the world is the challenge. There is still tremendous stigma attached to addiction. Many doctors refuse to treat it in fear of having item stolen from their office, or scaring their regular patients. I've actually heard doctors say this. They don't realize these are normal people who are already in their practice being treated for pain and other ailments. I was at The ASAM (American Society of Addiction Medicine) “State of the Art” conference, in Washington a couple weeks ago. Science knows it’s a physical condition, and doctors say they agree, but actions of some doctors is not consistent with that philosophy. Fortunately many new doctors are being trained every week. There are about 500 that have been trained and who are waiting for there approval from the DEA. The doctor list on this site is updated daily, so there is the potential for new docs to appear daily. Leeglegle, please read what I wrote here: http://naabt.org/education/modern_philosophy.cfm it’s take a similar view. I am very happy to have such a great group of people on this site.
Tim
|
|
|
|
dodo
Senior Member
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 09:23:39
|
| Hi! I believe also there is still a stigma attached to this type of addiction. My family doctor who prescribed the pain pills for me just kept doing so even after several times of telling (crying) him I thought I had a problem with them. He would tell me to take so many to wean off and yet when I would call for a full prescription so many days later he would fill it. I'm not blaming him, let me get that straight! But after a phony prescription being called in under my name he refused to see me anymore. I didn't call it in but I have a very good idea of who did. After wanting to get clean for so long and then this happening amongst other things I realized this was the time. He turned his back on me. I believe some doctors know exactly what they are doing when prescribing pain meds. They know you'll keep coming back. As far as the stigma thing, I called one pharmacy to see if they carried Suboxone and the response was, Oh No! We don't carry that and hung up on me. The doctor I found for the Suboxone has been great with me. I have been on 8mg for eleven days now and I feel wonderful. I haven't felt like this in soooo long! The simple things mean something again. I'm finishing stuff I wouldn't have before, I've taken that pride back again of how I want my house to look. Before I would just be like oh whatever it'll get done even just somthing as simple as doing the dishes. That may sound stupid to some of you but when I was on the Vicodin, I just got to a point where I was like Whatever! The best thing I did was this and the second best was coming clean with my husband and children. They are old enough to understand and have. I still need to find the right counselor. I'm pretty sure because of the underlying depression I've found who I want to go to. I'm not into the AA/NA thing for now. I've been to some of those meetings in the past and I'm sure they work for alot of people. But my objective here is to get to the bottom of MY problems. I'm also planning on including my family in therapy down the road. Well to all of you Thanks for being here and have a great day! |
|
|
|
gwen
Senior Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2005 : 12:14:42
|
hi dodo. it just amazes me at the numbers of people who believe and perpetuate the stigma of addiction. it has been proven scientifically that it is a disease, but i guess the science just isn't good enough for them. even for some in the medical profession.
i'm glad you were blessed with a good doctor. it makes such a difference. and i know what you mean about the simple things like doing the dishes! i'd just look at them hope the dish fairy would take care of them. not that there were many of them. it just didn't matter. now i can't stand to have dirty dishes in the sink! :) 'shop around' for a good counselor. as i said prior, i went to a couple before i found a good one. don't be afraid to almost interview THEM. glad to see you doing well. you're on the right road! yay!
peace-
gwen |
|
|
|
VIPERFPG
New Member
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 05:13:13
|
GOOD MORNING ALL-
THE BELOW MESSAGE I POSTED ALSO ON THE OTHER TOPIC UNDER UNSURE OF MY DR..
I AM REPOSTING ALSO ON THIS TOPIC AND WOULD GREATLY APPREICATED ANY AND ALL HELP--
I DID GO THROUGH MY FIRST FULL DAY ON THE 8mg YESTERDAY SINCE DOING THIS POST---I DID OKAY-HOWEVER I DID HAVE MY VERY FIRST CRAVING IN OVER A WEEK SINCE BEING TAPERED, AND I DID HAVE ALITTLE DEPRESSION AND ENERGY LEVEL WAS ALTERED FOR SURE..
AGAIN ANY HELP I WOULD TAKE UNDER CONSIDERATION PLEASE--
I AM AFRAID SINCE I LIVE IN A VERY VERY RURAL AREA--WHERE ALL DR'S ARE VERY ATTACHED AT THE HIP--IF I DO SEEK OUT ANOTHER SUB DR TO HAVE IN CASE OF PROBLEMS--THAT I WILL END UP NOT BEING TREATED BY ANY--I AM ONE OF THOSE TYPES WHO HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO STEP ON ANY OF MY DR'S TOES..
Good Morning to all--
Just a quick update of events:
and a couple notes:
First yet once again---to all of you---
You have guided me, pushed me, inspired me, to get off my butt and go and crab life again---
A karmatic rebirth, so to speak--A clean one!!!!
Just A Big Note of Heart felt THANKS-----
Connie,
I am so proud of you----I know you are gonna beat this----
I see your committment, Hang in there, Don't let these meetings, or searching for the right program, or close minded people, or anything or anyone, derail you----
I can tell you are such a strong lady, you will find what will work for you..I will be thinking of you each day--and sending Love--postive energy--to you and each of you----EVERYDAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE..
Okay now update to all my coaches----
Saw my Dr. yesterday----as you know this was my first week of sober--in many years----GOD HAS IT FELT INCREDIABLE!!!!
He of course stated I was doing GREAT---
I have as of last night--attended--4 3 hr classes
and will attend 3 NA meetings this weekend.
My program does not look fondly upon anyone who misses a class, and I have not..
my husband and mother--and neice are attending the NA meetings with me this weekend..
Yesterday I was taken down to 8mg per day, as you know I started at 12mg----
Thus far I have felt fine--
I feel I over the years have struggled with untreated depression also.
I only pray that I continue to feel the way I have been and do as well as I have,---as we continue to taper me down off of sub.
after the week at 8mg of sub----the Dr. will be going down to 4mg--then 2mg---then 1mg---So In 3wks The Dr. wants me off of everything--I can tell you that If I should start to have a problem as he tapers me down---He will not be the type of Dr. to put me back on a low dose--and he does not believe anyone should be on sub for longer than 6wks--
So as you can see I would be hitting a brick wall with him If I do see that I need sub for a longer period--
But I am living and looking forward to each day ahead.
I will keep you all posted on my journey
AND ONLY WISH BRIGHT DAYS--HAPPY DAYS--SOBER DAYS--
FOR ALL OF YOU---WHO HAVE BEEN SO WONDERFUL FOR AND TO ME..
I EVEN SPOKE OF THIS BOARD LAST NIGHT IN CLASS, OF COURSE NO DETAILS BUT ONLY HOW INSPIRING ALL OF YOU HAVE BEEN TO ME--
AND THAT IT MIGHT HELP SOMEONE IN MY GROUP TO SEARCH FOR THIS TYPE OF COACH---
ANYWAY CLOSING FOR NOW.
I SEND EACH OF YOU ---ONLY THE BEST WISHES
CONNIE I AM CHEERING FOR YOU..AND ALL OF YOU
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!
GOD BLESS
PENNY |
|
|
|
Connie
Senior Member
USA
667 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 07:44:03
|
Penny,
I have only empathy for your situation...I too am limited in my choices because of geography. But I did find some helpful tools per Caroline's suggestions.
Check this web site www.smartrecovery.org. I attended a SMART group and obtained their handbook. In it are some valuable suggestions for coping with cravings. Their meetings aren't as widespread as AA but maybe there's one near you. Also these sites offer suggestions for dealing with cravings-www.unhooked.com-www.secularsobriety.org. Literature is available from these folks if you can afford it. I know how frustrating it is to be relieved from the cravings, only to have them return. And to not be able to have an informed, intelligent conversation with your doctor is a recipe for defeat, at least for me it is. But you are strong, highly motivated and in just the right place to fight for yourself now. If you have to search out every doctor in a 100-radius until you get satisfaction, do it. That's what I'm in the process of doing right now. I feel my recovery is in jeopardy and I must take action to insure I get through to the other side. The benefit to this is that it takes your mind off the cravings.
I don't know how successful we will be. But I think you would agree that it's worth fighting for. The fact that you're feeling considerably different since starting to taper signals to me that it's too soon. Maybe you can locate a doc through this site who's more experienced that would agree to contact your doc with some friendly advice?
But in the mean time, try out some of the suggestions for dealing with cravings. Often it works, and even when it doesn't it's still good practice. And don't be afraid to speak up to your doc...tell him your fears, and ask him if he knows of any other docs in your area that offer sub treatment. Good luck...I'm hanging in there with you. Let me know what happens...keep posting every day so we know how you're feeling as you taper down.
Connie |
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 08:52:01
|
| Connie, thank you for sharing those web-site addresses. Cravings can be caused by different things for different people and one approach is to identify what precipitates craving for the individual. One patient told me that if he drives through the City on his way home from work, he would get a craving. Another person said that having money in his pocket would do it. Generally, having anything around that reminds a person of his/her drug use can be a cause for craving and relapse. Once the 'triggers' are identified, the next step is learning how to deal with them...for triggers that you can't get rid of or avoid, such as unexpectedly running into a person who used to supply your habit, you need to have mentally rehearsed how you are going to say 'no' to this person. Counseling and support, especially early on in the recovery process, is important for helping you deal with these situations and triggers. Also, post acute withdrawal symptoms can make a person think about using. For PAWS symptoms such as edginess, anxiety, sweatiness, I usually prescibe clonidine, which most patients say helps a lot. I also give a non-habituating medication for sleep if there is lingering insomnia. Anyway, if you have an occasion where you feel like using, think about why or what it was that made you feel that way. |
|
|
|
Mary
Advanced Member
USA
2380 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 08:57:22
|
Good morning!
Connie, how was the SMART recovery meeting? If you wouldn't mind, what was it all about? I'm glad you're looking into alternatives, I just wish you and Penny had a doc like mine. Sorry, but the technology isn't so that I can beam him over (i'm working feverishly on it though...:) Is the counselor accepting the SMART group in lieu of AA/NA? That would be a step. Otherwise, how are you feeling? You sound good, on track and really intent on making this recovery journey work for you! For which I am happy.
For both Penny and Connie, I'm wondering, just a thought here and a question, are there any psychiatrists in your areas who are certified to prescribe? I'm thinking that they may be more apt to be less rigid in the dosing than the clinics or regular medical doctors? Especially with the expertise they would have in therapy, depression and dual diagnosis situations. Most of them are covered by insurance.
Please keep me posted.
Sending you both positive energy beams. |
|
|
|
Connie
Senior Member
USA
667 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2005 : 14:12:25
|
Mary and all-FYI-SMART recovery
This is a secular recovery group, an alternative to AA/NA. It's based on cognitive-behavioral therapy, particularly Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy as developed by Albert Ellis. The meetings are designed to offer support as participants learn the skills outlined in their handbook. They discourage the use of labels,eg. addict/alcoholic, and the idea that we are powerless. They believe we have the power, given the right tools, to change our own behavior. Everyone in the group is encouraged to participate. There is no judgement, no disrespect...cross-talk is encouraged so that all ideas are heard and utilized.
The meeting I attended was small, only 4 people, but it was a breath of fresh air. I felt like this approach was logical and not bogged down by 60 years of rigid dogma. The developers are always open to change as science uncovers more info regarding addiction. So there is no judgement about suboxone treatment even though this is an abstinence-based program. The only problem for me was their belief that addiction is not a disease, it's a bad habit. I'm not really sure how I feel about this. I need to examine my own beliefs about this, which is problematic because I've been told for 30 years that I have a disease. I've always bought into this theory. Or maybe it's unimportant whether I agree or disagree since they don't require that all members blindly accept every premise, in fact, quite the opposite...free-thinking is encouraged.
So I was happy to have found this group, but they only meet twice a week. I don't know how this will go over with my group counselor...I guess I'll find out when I go to group on Tues., if I go. I'm actively looking for another doc or program that might work better for me, but so far no luck. My list of other providers is short and I was hoping to get through them all today, but I'm finding they are closed for the holiday. If I have to I'll continue where I'm at and brace myself for the assault I'll face every Tues. when I have to tell my counselor I haven't gotten a sponser, nor attended an AA meeting every day. Ahh, I feel that recovery envy creeping in...Mary, I'm fiending for your doc! And he probably doesn't even distribute golden puke buckets. I've really lowered my standards as far as what I consider 'cush recovery!
One last observation..I was switched from subutex to suboxone on Thursday. After my first dose, I became extremely nauseous and vomited all morning. I spent the whole day in bed, feeling sick. But today I didn't experience any of that. Just a fluke, or could it be I'm one of those who's allergic to the naltrexone? I've never been allergic to anything and it didn't happen today so I don't know what to think. |
|
|
|
Dr.Will
Active Member
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 09:13:14
|
| Naloxone does make some people nauseas. It could be fluke because it tastes different then the Subutex. If it continues your doc should switch you back to Subutex. It happens in about 7-12% of patients and vomiting in 3-8%, so its unlikely but not unheard of. Smart recovery is a great group and a good alternative for people who aren’t compatible with NA. I think their view of addiction not being a disease is to prevent people from feeling powerless and giving in. Medicine has PROVEN that addiction is a physical change, it bothers me that they select to ignore science. If they don’t feel it’s a disease then they can’t be for treating it with medicine. Everything else about the group sounds great. |
|
|
|
TIM
Administrator
USA
2889 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 09:21:55
|
Here is a PET scan to bring to your next meeting showing the changes in brain tissue in an addicted person vs. non-addicted.
http://naabt.org/images/Dr.Volkow.jpg I have more supporting evidence if you would like it.
Tim |
|
|
|
spanky
Senior Member
USA
328 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 13:21:19
|
| leeglegle welcome to our little conner of sanity.I was on prozac for about 4 years prior to starting on Bupe for anixity and mild depression.Since I started on Bupe however I have been able to discontinue the prozac without any troubles.I feel wonderful and like you will most likely be on it for awhile if not forever.The book you're writting is a wonderful thing ,maybe it will open the eyes of those in power to make this drug more available for the many who still suffer.I can honestly say that if not for the Bupe I'd be either using again or dead by my own hand cause I honestly couldn't stand the misery I was dealing with.By the grace of God I found this forum and this drug and I and my life are so much better for it.Good luck to you .Keep us posted on your progress.....Peace Spanky |
|
|
|
spanky
Senior Member
USA
328 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2005 : 16:48:24
|
| Connie I aslo had a problem with Suboxone after taking it for several days I would begin to itch severly all over and my eyes would become swollen and puffy (looked like I had been punched several times over)My Dr. switched me to Subutex and presto all better.I then switched back to Suboxone after a 1 week trial on Subutex and after a few days again with the itching all over so again I switched to Subutex and again all better.So now I'm convinced that I am allergic to the naltrexone.I see my Dr. again on Tuesday and I'm a little afraid that he might not want to leave me on Subutex (You know because of the trust factor)The second time I went back to the Suboxone the symptoms weren't as bad but troublesome none the less.Maybe my body will adjust who knows.Maybe one of our Dr. friends could comment on this.LOVE YOU ALL ...SPANKY |
|
|
|
Mary
Advanced Member
USA
2380 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2005 : 07:04:14
|
Hey Connie.
Wow. No labels? Not powerless? And no judgement on taking bupe. That sounds great. The addiction is a bad habit not a disease is a bit iffy. I firmly believe that it is. But to have a group so flexible and in the other ways is much better and with behavior modification in a rational manner. I'm going to have to see if there's a group up. Yeah, my doc. He's great. But alas no golden puke buckets. But he does have a good sense or humor! Which works well with me and my wisecracks.
How was your weekend? Did you feel naseous again and puke again without the golden bucket? I hope not. Hopefuly it was a just a stomach bug. It's so weird. Hoping you HAD a stomach bug. Oh my. But in any event, you know what I mean! Let me know how the search goes today for a doctor. Hopefully they didn't decide to make it a 4-day veterans day holiday...
Thanks for the SMART info. More beams coming your way! |
|
|
|
rac1210
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2005 : 10:00:33
|
| Leeglele...you are right on the mark with many points about suboxone, depression and doctors ignorant of this medication. Ignorance takes time to overcome even with professionals but in time things will change. Legislators, judges, law enforcement, social workers must be educated to the benefits of suboxone and then become stong advocates for its use. Also, if the powers to be can appreciate the economic savings of suboxone theapy, especially insurance companies, its acceptance will begin to surface. Addiction is a disease and most doctors agree with this concept, but the social stigma still exist and most doctors just don't want to get involved because of minimal financial incentives, DEA fears, no support among their peers, general apathy to this patient population and misconceptions how these patients will effect their practices. |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2005 : 00:02:17
|
Rick rac1210:
I see we are from the same corner of Virginia. Let's talk directly when convenient.
My name is Robert Eisen. I live in Norfolk. My email address is leeglegle@aol.com. My phone cell number is (757) 672-8082. My current sub doc is Dr. Ionescu in Newport News. I'd like to commnicate directly with you as I am writing a book. Addiction and the miracle of suboxone is an important part of my book.
If you want to know more about me, please go to pilotonline.com, the Va Pilot newspaper webpage. and pull up their Sunday, Feb 13, '05 edition. There is a lengthy profile of me under the title "SURVIVOR". I want to communicate with you about spreading the knowledge of the miracle and revolution of suboxone treatment.
I recognize we are all busy people and have to prioritize our time, so when convenient for you, I would appreciate a direct contact. Thanks for posting your real name and address.
All the best,
Robert |
|
|
|
cnjsmom1111
Active Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 11/20/2005 : 01:07:39
|
Hi Dodo,
I was reading through these posts and when I read about the Dr. just refilling your script even after you cried telling him you have a problem and he did it anyway, that same thing has happened to me. Those Dr's are drug dealers and do not care about their patients. I live in Houston and you would not believe how easy it is to walk in off the streets and get a script for 120 lortabs, no questions asked. And there are dozens of dr.'s like that in this town. The other thing you said about your house "That may sound stupid to some of you but when I was on the Vicodin, I just got to a point where I was like Whatever!" I totally relate because I love having my house look pretty and clean and love to decorate, etc., but just dont care anymore and all these things your saying are giving me so much to look forward to. |
Edited by - cnjsmom1111 on 11/20/2005 01:14:43 |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 14:25:39
|
Hi Russell:
I notice how often you refer to your depression and that the miracle of sub took you out of it. I'm curious. Did your depression predate your drug use? Please tell me more about your experience w/ depression & sub. Thank you.
I, too, was severely depressed for over twenty years. That's what started my abuse of opiods. Like magic, sub therapy wiped it out along with my addiction. I was like a newborn baby. I had to learn how to live again. I had to learn what was "normal".
It took me almost a year to fully understand "normal". "Normal" is a hell of a lot better than any high I ever had.I began a new, wonderful life free from my twin beasts of depression and addiction. I also became more spiritual in general.
It's coming up on three years of total sobriety and the complete absence of depression. If that isn't a miracle, I don't know what could be.
Ain't it nice we're not scrambling around for enough drugs to get us through from now to New Year's? The holidays used to suck. Now, I anticipate them happily.
If any other reader has a depression/addiction story and wants to share it, thanks. I'm very interested in the comorbidity factor of addiction. There is a substantial amount of clinical studies and medical literature that addresses this phenomenon.
Opiates were used as recently as the 1950's to treat untreatable (refractory) depression. However, they were too addictive and patients eventually built a tolerance. But now we have sub, a PARTIAL opioid agonist and a very safe drug. Aren't we lucky?
Thanks for your time.
Robert |
Edited by - leeglegle on 11/26/2005 14:49:10 |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 14:38:09
|
I thought this post should be under this subject, so I copied and pasted it. I know there's a more direct, easy way to do it. I'll learn eventually.
Dr Will,
That is an excellent point. Its just a little "convenient" that MMT and Buprenorphine, two opioids with a very long 1/2 life (up to 72 hrs) both produce similar wd symptoms. While you are correct in the fact that it would be hard to determine what actually caused the extended wd's symptoms and consequential PAWS to a specific "timeframe" of abuse or treatment.
I simply ask this question, in multiple studies Buprenorphine has been used to treat refractory depression, TRD Treatment Resistant Depression, and other forms of depression.(with great success) None of these patients were on any opiates/opioids prior to many of these studies. Would it be safe to say that after discontinuing the Buprenorphine they would simply return to exactly where they were before the study, without ANY extended symptoms of WD'?
Just curious if that test would have/could still be a proper "gauge" regarding extended treatment.
Thanks
Ratch
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 14:48:00
|
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 14:18:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Will,
That is an excellent point. Its just a little "convenient" that MMT and Buprenorphine, two opioids with a very long 1/2 life (up to 72 hrs) both produce similar wd symptoms. While you are correct in the fact that it would be hard to determine what actually caused the extended wd's symptoms and consequential PAWS to a specific "timeframe" of abuse or treatment.
I simply ask this question, in multiple studies Buprenorphine has been used to treat refractory depression, TRD Treatment Resistant Depression, and other forms of depression.(with great success) None of these patients were on any opiates/opioids prior to many of these studies. Would it be safe to say that after discontinuing the Buprenorphine they would simply return to exactly where they were before the study, without ANY extended symptoms of WD'?
Just curious if that test would have/could still be a proper "gauge" regarding extended treatment.
Thanks
Ratch
Dr.Will
USA
32 Posts
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 14:32:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“I simply ask this question, in multiple studies Buprenorphine has been used to treat refractory depression, TRD Treatment Resistant Depression, and other forms of depression.(with great success) None of these patients were on any opiates/opioids prior to many of these studies. Would it be safe to say that after discontinuing the Buprenorphine they would simply return to exactly where they were before the study, without ANY extended symptoms of WD'?”
Quite the opposite. It would be expected that they would go through a withdrawal period proportionate to their dose, and length of treatment. Those studies could be looked at to see if there were any long term adverse effects, other then depression and conditions that can be attributed to depression. However, doses used for depression are often less then 1mg.daily.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by - Dr.Will on 12/06/2005 14:36:01
|
|
|
|
SomeDayBFree
Senior Member
USA
254 Posts |
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2005 : 23:31:20
|
SomeDay:
Thanks very much for the reference. I was unaware of it.
There are a series of studies from Yale and McLean Hospital at Harvard around the same time frame. They too, make the link betweeen opiates and depresion. More interestingly, some also discuss the use of partial agonists such as buprenorphine for depression treatment. I'll post them as soon as I can locate them again.
My own experience was that sub immediately knocked out a lifelong depression which led to my opiates addiction. Sub was not only a miracle anti-addiction drug for me, it was, as well, an even bigger miracle anti-depressant.
Thanks for your interest and efforts.
Robert |
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 09:41:16
|
Robert, thought you'd be interested in this:
'Treatment for Attorneys with Substance Related and Co-Occurring Psychiatric Disorders: Demographics and Outcomes'.
Sweeney, Myers, and Molea.
Journal of Addictive Diseases, Vol 23(1) 2004
Haworth Press
http://www.haworthpress.com
Caroline |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 18:21:07
|
Caroline: Many thanks. I was completely unanware of your information.
Purple: Many thanks. I was only aware of a very small portion of your information.
My problem, as a layman, is trying to digest this technical info. in a way that can be translated into a more simple form. By the way, I'm reading a great book, "Mind Wide Open", by Steven Johnson, that does KISS (keep it simple, stupid).
I'll certainly follow up on your references. I am keenly interested on studies that relate to specific categories of addicts.
Once again, thanks to you both.
Robert |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2005 : 18:50:21
|
David R.:
Thanks for your phone call last night. Sorry I was unable to talk. I tried to call you back today at the number you left (**7) *5*-434*, but cannot get through. I will try you again tomorrow, In the meantime, pls read the posts just prior to this re: endogenous opiods, etc.
Thanks and all the best,
Robert |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 00:20:06
|
Purple:
Thanks for your 12/10/05 post on this topic. It has proved invaluable.
I was only aware of a small portion of the study.
All the best,
Robert |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 06:30:17
|
Keep what yuo can use for your book and toss the rest,I find a lot of stuff while surfing the net,I cant copy and paste a link for some reason and i dont want to piss any one off with leanthy posts.
I started taking suboxone in june for pain managment, and I relized that it to has helped me with my depression,I am also in CASAC traing
and do a lot of research on the Terence Gorski website. If you put his name in yyour search engine and can find his website I think it may be helpfull to you,Link after link of info and studys on dep. and addition.
Leeg. Does your doc. prescribe sub in another form of off label script for deppresion???
My ins. is only paying for 1 more month and i wont be able to afford sub. on my own. I havnt talked to my doc. yet about this.Just wondering how your on for 3 years??? or do you pay out of pocket???
Have a good day |
Edited by - purple on 12/14/2005 06:55:29 |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 12:20:24
|
Hi Purp:
Once again, thanks for your information.
What is CASAC training? I've heard of Terrence Gorski, but never really read his body of work. I will ASAP.
To answer your question about on vs. off label use: I take it strictly on-label. Otherwise it would not be covered by insurance. That being said however, on-label use of suboxone is the ONLY medicine that has dealt effectively with my addiction disease, in large measure because it also deals so effectively with my depressive illness that long predated my addiction.
Regarding your insurance problem, I'm incredibly lucky to have a plan that covers me for so long as maintenance therapy is medically indicated. I think my co-pay is either $5.00 or $20.00 and my doctor writes me a two month script, so I only have a co-pay every 60 days. My doc and I are discussing a 3 month (or longer) script. I may be wrong, but I believe FDA regs allow for as much as a 6 mo. supply in one script. That reflects the safety of sub. I also think it may be a a Class of meds that are less rigorously restricted than valium and the like.
More to the point concerning your insurance problem is information on another Topic thread about someone with coverage problems like yours. Caroline (the doc) wrote about a program starting in January whereby Reckitt-Benkiser, sub's manufacturer, will assist patients w/o insurance who meet certain criteria. I'll try and find it for you and post it here. Give me a day or so.
Once again, thanks for your help.
All the best,
Robert |
|
|
|
cnjsmom1111
Active Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 12:25:41
|
Hi Robert,
Once you find the info on Reckitt-Benkiser assisting patients w/o insurance, let me know because I'm a single mom with 2 kids and own my own business. I dont have any insurance, so I'm sure I would quality. Thanks |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 13:15:19
|
| Will do. If not before, you can count on the info. sometime tonight. |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 14:38:20
|
I also remember reading that post.I dont have time to search for it now but i will look to and post here if i find it.
CASAC traing is certified alcahol and substance abuse counclor.
Leeg thanks for your response |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 16:31:53
|
Hi I found the info leeg.was talking about it is posted under
TOPIC COST OF MEDICINE by sara
Caroline posted Indigent care program starting on Jan.9th
Gwen posted Phone ##s877-782-6966or 877-SUBOXONE
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2005 : 17:51:05
|
Purp:
Thanks. From the bottom of my heart, thanks.
Our community on this site is an awesome display of the possibilities of speaking the truth to power.
I'm so lost today in my personal responsibilities and the responsibility to help when I, or any of us on this site, can help our fellow travelers, that I was drowning.
Purp, you stepped into the breach and may have helped save a life.
You should feel very good about yourself. I don't want to sound too mawkish, but we're a great bunch and this website is a life ring for drowning innocents. This is the power of leverage and synergy.
It's a good moment to feel good about ourselves.
I know Judy and Tony are grateful for all of you. Let's all say a prayer for them. And for us.
Peace. With emphasis..., PEACE! |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2005 : 07:01:19
|
Wow Robert ,you had a draining day to say the least. THANK GOD YOU WHERE THERE FOR THEM<you should take your own kind words for your self as well
THANK GOD FOR ROBERT AKA[LEEG] |
|
|
|
opiatedeficient
Senior Member
647 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 10:36:43
|
I'm new to these boards, and have been reading with a great deal of interest. To say that I'm frustrated does not even cut it.
I have been taking suboxone, on and off, for 2 years now.
I too have been debilitated with depression for as long as I can remember. The kind of depression where you literally can't get out of bed, can't muster the energy to brush your teeth, pray for death. Fun stuff /sarcasm.
I have NO doubt that what drew me to narcotics was how they completely erased that depression in a way the prozac, paxil, zoloft, welbutrin, effexor, NEVER did. When I was abusing the pills, I felt content. I was happy. Not anxious, not crying, not shy. I graduated from grad school, worked, went out with friends...honestly, life for me on the pills was GREAT. Except, of course, for the fact that I was doing illegal things to get them, and we all know that catches up to you and then you are FORCED to change.
I tried the whole rehab, NA program for a long time. I could never pull together more than a few months of sobriety at a time, and that was all white-knuckle too. I have NEVER wanted to be clean, because I feel TERRIBLE "clean." I always look at these happy clean people thanking god that they're not using today, and I'm like, "are you nuts? I keep praying that it will start raining percocet!"
I went on suboxone after another relapse with pills and a suicide attempt. I also heard the wonderful things about sub.
WHY isn't it working for me? It has really done nothing but keep me off of the drugs, which I know is "supposed" to be good....but it only stops me from the pills because I know that the sub will block the effects of the pills. My depression is just as bad as ever. I'm also gaining a bad anxiety issue. I'm in a terrible mood most of the time, honestly I am NO fun to be around. I'm a very intelligent person who is getting very little done because I have no drive, no energy, no passion anymore.
And I'm so frustrated because I keep hearing other people's stories that have these miraculous recoveries with suboxone...no depression, no cravings...
God, my cravings are still horrible. I have dreams every week about looking for/finding prescription pills.
I have been on doses from 2 mg to 16 mgs, trying to see if changing the dose would help.
I know that if someone offered me pills today, I would be THRILLED. And that is NOT how I am supposed to feel after such a long time with sub, right?
I'm sorry to bitch/whine, but I'm so frustrated. I want to be able to live life like I see other people do. I want to be able to find happiness in the small things, and to enjoy things.
|
|
|
|
Phoenix
Senior Member
USA
579 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 10:55:02
|
I'm not anywhere near an expert, my fiancee can't even get started on this drug, but is it possible that 16 mg isn't enough? I wouldn't have a clue, but of all the stories I've heard, this is the first one, on any site, that is negative.
J |
|
|
|
Jake
Senior Member
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 11:05:52
|
Welcome opiatedeficient,
Depression is terrible. I know I don’t have to tell you and people who have never experienced severe depression don’t understand just debilitating it is. Buprenorphine(in Suboxne) has a ceiling effect. It is possible that your depression is above the ceiling of Suboxone. Its also possible that your dose was too low, although 16mgs. Is enough for the vast majority of patients there are some patients that needed 24-32mg before they responded. The docs thought the patient might be selling his meds, but it turned out he just needed more then 99% of the population. He had a similar response to you, even at 16mgs he still had cravings, that was odd because most people stop craving around 12-16mg. When he finally went up to 24 he started to feel better and at 32 he reported no cravings and no depression. I lost track of him about a month after that so I don’t know what happened long term. It’s interesting that full opioids relieved the depression, that’s what made me think of this. Hope this helps some.
Jake
|
|
|
|
opiatedeficient
Senior Member
647 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 11:13:47
|
I have "heard" that 16 mgs is a decent dose...in fact, on another board I've been reading a lot today, there is a huge battle cry that 16 is way too high, and doses of 2-6 are way better.
So confusing. I have actually done more than 16mgs...not exactly under doctors orders, but experimenting to see if I could make things better myself. The higher doses usually gave me nasty headaches and not much else.
I too have noticed that there aren't that many people talking about not having success with sub. But, thinking more about it....it kind of makes sense. If sub didn't work, chances are people either went back to using, or found another treatment that worked, so they wouldn't bother to be on a sub board at all. :)
That's why I posted though...because I have to wonder if there is anyone else like me who looks at these boards, desperate to get what you all have, and can't figure out what is wrong.
I wish I could try methadone, honestly. If I didn't have to do the whole degrading clinic thing, I would give that a shot. |
|
|
|
Jake
Senior Member
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 11:47:26
|
The traetment goal is to take the minimum dose that works. (different for everyone)
Actually there are people who don't think it works. They usually only take it for <30 days, or only in low doses. Many people take it and get back to life and don't need to go on a board either.
The best way to sift through all the opion and nonsence is to read the scientific facts. 100 peole may take sub and 1 might have a bad expirience (for any number of unrelated reasons) That's the person who will get on the web and denouce it. The science is more accurate. Here is a link to some dosing and scientific studies.t might help
If the Suboxone is doing nothing for you other then blocking then you could switch to Naltrexone. Any doc can prescribe it, its cheap, and blocks opiates as well as sub.
Jake
|
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 12:18:21
|
| Another thing to consider is that you may have been misdiagnosed and, in reality, you don't have unipolar depression, but bipolar depression (which is frequently misdiagnosed). Bipolar needs to be treated correctly with the right medications to see improvement. Simply taking an antidepressant medication is not enough. I'd suggest you get a good psychiatric evaluation. Caroline |
|
|
|
opiatedeficient
Senior Member
647 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 15:51:45
|
Thanks Caroline,
I have actually had quite a bit of psychiatric evaluation. I've been in three different psych hospitals over the years for suicide attempts, or "gestures". I did some psych testing back when I was 20. Since the age of 12 I've had 4 different psychiatrists. I'm 29 now.
I don't *think* that bipolar would apply to me. I've never had the classic swings...no great, energetic, delusional days. I almost wish I would have them :)
I guess maybe sub just can't work for everyone, like any medication. I just keep hoping that there is a "trick" or a dosing, or something. I will do anything to stop these feelings, because living in a constant state of white knuckling, as we all know, really only can last so long before you "break" and take the first opportunity you can.
Sorry to be a downer, and please don't anyone think I am "bashing" sub. I think it really can be exactly what many of us "biological opiate deficient" people need to get on with a productive life not ruled by the drugs.
|
|
|
|
Caroline
Senior Member
844 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2005 : 16:01:57
|
Op, You don't indicate when your last psych evaluation was done, but if it was in the past (early 20's), perhaps you should have another.
Medicine changes...very rapidly. If you could find the right treatment, you could find much enjoyment in your life....right now.
Don't give up!!!!
Caroline |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 09:32:36
|
I started reading this thread from the beging, and i started thinking about my own life.
I used H for 12 years.In those 12 years i had been through a billion cold turckeys,and detoxs,and rehabs.7 years ago all the stuff i was doing came to ahead And i ended up in jail as a codefendant with someone and charges that where way out of my leage.As a result i cold turckt from a 12 bag a day habit,my own methadone maintiance and Benzos,I am not telling drug storys or reminicing about the good old days,Ive said all that to say this.
Through my 7 years clean ihave been dignosed with depression and after a fair corse of trying all the antids out there through my hands up becouse nothing worked.4 years with nothing in my systom,Some days i woke up ready to conquer the world,somedays early on i was just so happy to be drug free,BUT there where periods of weeks on and off that i didnt want to leave my apartment,or look any one in the eye,I had no energy to do anything and would cry silently for years on and off.
Whith my up bringing you where weak if you took antidepreasnts.
I started sub. for pain managment 6 months ago and like leeg. my depression is GONE
I just wanted to get that out on papper for my self to see
Despite my up bringing I have been able to notice i need help w/my depression/I dont really know where i am going w/ this so i will stop for now
so long |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2005 : 21:13:41
|
Hi, Def:
I hope you don't mind my shortened salutation. It's not meant to imply the same effect as "Hi-Def Television". Your form of clinical depression is quite the oposite of that sort of hi-def.
Your story reminds me of what a lucky person I am.
There have been a large number of responses on this site that relate similar experiences to my own regarding sudden release from the grip of long term, totally debilitating depression.
Your refractory depression's lack of response after suboxone therapy is, if I were to strictly confine myself to the responses on this website, atypical.
Both Caroline and Jake have raised penetrating questions and observations that lead to further inquiry. Purple has done the same.
You have responded to them.
The distinguishing characteristic of this website is that it seeks scientifically sound, well-reasoned responses.
I haven't yet dedicated sufficient time and thought to add my voice in response to your concerns. I look forward to doing so very soon. I'm perplexed by your response to sub threapy and only feel qualified to respond on a certain level. I'm not a scientist.
On the other hand, I've been one hell of a guinea pig who desperately sought a chemical solution to overwhelming depression for thirty years, also including electric shock therapy during that time. While our treatment experiences have been similar, our responses to sub therapy regarding refractory depression, are entirely dissimilar. My initial conclusion is that there must be a scientific answer to this anamoly.
The answer likely lies in the medical specialty of psychopharmacology. Recent advances in this field are huge.
There is much to learn and understand about (y)our experience with depression. I've been one of the lucky whose lifelong depression responded to suboxone. Why haven't you? I presume the answer lies in the infinite varieties of brain chemistry that define each of us as the separate personalities we are at birth.
I am confident the answers are here. The problem is finding YOUR individual answer.
Hang in there while allowing us who have read your posts to struggle with you to a conclusion that makes sense for you as the individual you are.
Here, you've come to a good place where, hopefully, the knowledge of your illness will be spread among a large group who will leverage the reach of this site to the extent that you will find new approaches and answers to your medical dilemma.
In the meantime, please be patient, our new friend.
Robert |
|
|
|
purple
Senior Member
USA
255 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 06:01:18
|
hAVE YOU EVER TRIED A COMBO OF SUBOXONE AND A ANTIDEPRESSANT??
I HAVNT DONE THIS ,SO I CANT SAY IT WOULD WORK BUT DO YOU THINK IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING TO TALK TO YOUR DOC. ABOUT ???
i AM SURE THAT WOULD MOST LIKLY BE TO EASY OF A SOLUTION,JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW THERES CARE AND CONCERN OUT HERE FOR YOU AND HAY YOU NEVER KNOW |
Edited by - purple on 12/18/2005 06:04:10 |
|
|
|
Plunk
Starting Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2005 : 16:15:44
|
Hi OpiateD,
Have you ever talked with your doc about naltrexone? It helped me with cravings.It fools the brain into thinking there are opiates there. I never felt "high" from it, but it helped. I take subutex.
Plunk
|
|
|
|
natasha
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 11:14:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Plunk
Hi OpiateD,
Have you ever talked with your doc about naltrexone? It helped me with cravings.It fools the brain into thinking there are opiates there. I never felt "high" from it, but it helped. I take subutex.
Plunk
|
|
|
|
natasha
Starting Member
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 11:21:20
|
| Hi, sorry about the other post, didn't know quite how this board works. Anyway, my reason for posting is to let you know that I, too, had major depression and that I was self-medicating for years with hydrocodone. That is until I finally got on suboxone. That was in March of 2004. I am still taking 8 mgs. every morning. I also take Effexor 150 mg. This seems to be the magic combo for me. I am happy and enjoying life. Can't begin to describe the "before" for you, but I'm sure you can imagine. Every time I tried to get off the opiates, I just got soooo depressed, didn't want to live, and just didn't know why. I had been on antidepressants before, but nothing worked as well as the two meds together. Hope this helps, Robert, let me know if you have questions. I'll check back later in the week. Natty |
|
|
|
opiatedeficient
Senior Member
647 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 12:09:40
|
Thank you everyone for continuing to read, respond and "problem-solve" with me.
I have been on a whole host of anti-depressants. I am currently taking Effexor 150mg a day. I've stuck with this one not because it seems to be working with my depression (because it isn't) but because it seems to have the least side effects...weight gain, sexual problems, etc.
I know, it is so silly to take a medicine that isn't working. I admit part of it is just frustration and complacency with the meds situation. I have been going to the same addictionologist for years, and I get so tired of going in and telling him the same thing every 2 weeks. That my depression is still bad, my anxiety is still bad, my cravings are still out of control, that I'd use in a hot second if given the opportunity...
I sometimes feel like there isn't going to be anything that can really, truly help me achieve what most of you have, so I will forced to plod along making do with what I have.
And in reality, I am such a lucky person. I'm not using, which even though I hate that, I know it's a "good" thing. I'm healthy as in not having cancer or AIDS or something terminal, I have a job, a great fiance, a safe and comfortable home with all the joys of TV, computer, washer/dryer, cats, warm bed, etc. I did a small bit of jail time for prescription fraud, and then spent months in and out of rehab, living with my parents, living with friends, not feeling like I had a "real" home, so this many years later I really have come far.
So I would have hoped that my "insides" would match my outsides after so long, you know? And they don't. Inside I'm still craving craving craving, and crying crying crying. I'm just getting better at putting up with it, and dragging myself out of bed every morning.
And that's no way to live...just "bearing" it....I want more out of life than that. But I'm also very tired of the constant struggle. |
|
|
|
opiatedeficient
Senior Member
647 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 12:22:21
|
Rob, I just noticed that you are in Norfolk!
Small world. I'm right outside of DC, in Fairfax. And my fiance's family lives in Virginia Beach!
My first rehab experience was at the Farley Center, at the Willimsburg Place in Williamsburg, VA. It was a great program, although at that time certainly did not know about or advocate for suboxone. This was in 2001.
I am a HUGE advocate for suboxone, even though I have not been thrilled with my personal results. I think it is so vital that everyone in the medical/psychiatric and legal communities recognize that addiction is a disease that often needs treatment just like any other disease. If someone walks in with cancer, do you tell them to just go to a support group and pray? No! You give chemo, radiation, whatever. You work with them on medicines as WELL as telling them how important support and spirituality are to healing.
I could go on and on about this topic. It angers me how very few people understand addiction, or even care to understand. It angers me that there are viable treatment options that are unavailable to so many people. It angers me that our prisons and jails are over-flowing with people who have a brain disease that left untreated will continue to land them right back in prison and jail. It angers me that as a white, upper middle class female with a masters degree and educated, supportive family, I was able to go to private rehabs, have private addictionologist support, get a good lawyer when I got into legal trouble, and have access to a doctor who prescribed suboxone, when someone else with my exact same addiction who does not have those blessings will not have access.
See...I told you I could go on and on! |
|
|
|
TLCMOM
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 21:43:39
|
HI I am brand new to this site it was a requirement for me to start the suboxone therapy. I am a registered nurse of 16 years. I have fought depression for as long as I can remember. My psychiatrist would put me on an antidepressant I would start to see improvement after a couple of weeks and then it seemed as if I would build up a tolerance.I was given Ultram for migrating myalgias(Muscle pains) and arthralgias(joint pain).Doctors shrugged it off as early arthritis. I found myself increasing the dose as I built up tolerance. Then I found myself taking the drug when I wasn't experiencing pain at all. I was energized and felt like without the drug I just couldn't do life period! I knew what was happening for I had experienced the same pattern with alcohol and cigarettes. I had my gallbladder removed in 1993 and they prescribed Percocet! All the while on antidepressants. Over the coarse of the next 10 years or so I learned how to play the doctors, lost prescription bottles to get new prescriptions, came up with different pain issues etc. Then the divorce from my first husband whom I married as a child and lasted 17 years. Devastation hit. Graduated to anything I could get my hands on. So sorry I know I am not suppose to talk about what got me here but move forward to healing. But I feel that in order to relate we have to know a little background upfront. To wrap it up I remarried quickly my drug use turned to injecting narcotics(preferably Dilaudid/Morphine). Went to outpt. treatment program in March of this year. Suboxone was never introduced as an option for me. Use started back up in a matter of weeks. I was then told that I was a prime case of manic/depressive being treated only for the depression and not the mania. They put me on Lamictal along with my very top dose of Effexor and Provigil. Still using all the while. Depression finally took me to the lowest ever. Didn't even have the energy to seek out drug. Totally isolated, sleeping entire days and not performing any tasks of daily living. Withdrawal was wracking my whole being. God lead me to a doctor that guided me to help. Legleegle my doc told me you will be very helpful.So here I am. I right off the bat related to your comment about feeling normal for the first time. I am a little scared of it. I actually feel better than when I was on the drugs. I figured I was just wired wrong and would never experience normal. Anyone else skeptical? Also anyone else feel over energized, difficulty concentrating? Difficulty sleeping? Thanks for your time. Sorry so long! Wendyquote:
Originally posted by leeglegle
Greetings:
I am new to this forum and happy to have found it. A brief bio: I am a 55 yo white male attorney, married 32 years and have 2 children. My daughter, age 25, graduated law school in May, 05. She lives and works in Washington,D.C. My son, age 23, is pursuing his MBA in San Diego and is a surfer dude. My wife is a public school teacher. I reside in Norfolk/Virginia Beach, VA.
My first experience with bupe was in the mid 1990's in a residential drug treatment program. My reaction was miraculous. More on that in a moment. Unfortunately, I only received the med for three days. Those were the three most normal days for me in 20, yes, twenty years.
I sought treatment as soon as I was discharged. I also resumed drug use (vics, oxy, etc.). I consumed an average of 40 extra stregth vics/day and as many oxys as I could get my hands on.
I learned of a doctor in Bethesda, MD. who was mixing bupe into jello shooters and was successfully treating a number of patients. I immediately contacted this doc and obtained an appt.I had learned about him in a large article in The Washington Post. Unfortunately, that article triggered a visit by the DEA Nazis and he was threatened with loss of his med.license and, therefore, regretfully, head had discharged all of his addiction patients and could not treat me.
I remained an addict for four more years.
I have had an additional problem since my mis-twenties. I suffered from unrelenting, ever worsening depression. My life-long disease of depression triggered my addiction which started in my mid-forties and worsened and progressed along with my depression.
I had a psychotic eisode during the summer/fall of 2001 and was involuntarily committed to a mental hospital. To make this long story shorter: While hospitalized my doc. told me that ALL opiate addicts had a deficiency in the brain chemical dopamine. I was astonished that in twenty years of psychotherapy and a decade of treatment for opiate addiction not a single doctor or care provider had told me that. I asked the doc. what meds. were available for a dopamine deficiency. The answer was only one drug, Wellbutrin, but that it was an extremely mild dopaminergic, meaning it only stimulated dopamine very slightly.
As usual, I immediately resumed my addiction upon release, but this time I resumed my search for buprenorphine. I also tried Wellbutrin. Usual result, increasing depression and opiates use. Then,a miracle! Suboxone was approved in October, and I was released in January. I began a fantic search for Suboxone and no doctors in my area and elsewhere would treat me. My own addiction doc dismissed the idea saying, "That's just trading one addiction for another." I was livid and discovered that ignorance and bigotry about opiate addiction was widespread, even among addiction doctors. I had also insisted during my addiction that depression was at its core. That I was comorbid in that respect. No one ever listened or took me seriously.
I found a Sub doc and my addiction instantly disappeared AS DID MY DEPRESSION! I still take 10 mgs/day of Suboxone and will for the rest of my life. It is my "insulin". The disappearance of depression was even more significant for me than was the relief from addiction. I had been an addict for 7-8 yrs., but a depressive for thirty or more years.
Now, for my question: Has anyone else had a similar experience with regard to suboxone and depression?
I am writing a book on this experience and have an agent who is actively seeking a publisher. I also have started my own, small lobbying effort to have suboxone approved for the treatment of depression. It is an effective treatment for both addiction and depression because of its effect on the brain chemical dopamine. There are millions of people uselessly suffering from depression in addition to those suffering from addiction.
Your help and information, PLEASE! THANK YOU AND BEST OF LUCK.
Cheers,
Robert D. Eisen
6836 Fordwick Dr.
Norfolk, VA 23518
(757) 853-5995
(757) 672-8082 (preferred number)
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 23:17:04
|
Wendy!
First, no need to apologize for anything. Nothing. Nada.
Regrets, sure. Tell me of anyone who has experienced a full life who doesn't have regrets. You've endured a chronic illness for many years and have triumphed. Congratulations!
Please, no apologies. You have nothing to apologize for. To the contrary, you've perservered against an overwhelming illness and are in the beginning stages of a triumphant new life. You're the definition of a survivor against odds most never have to face.
In my career I've had the honor of representing many medical professionals who've had to face the legal consequences of your illness. Thanks to suboxone, a new era is emerging where you, and others with your same problem, will resume their careers and prosper. You'll be a better RN because of your personal challenges. I know I'm both a better lawyer and, I hope, a better person because of experiences similar to yours.
Now you have to face "normal", something you've never known or forgot a long time ago. Well, your new "normal" is better than the "normal" experienced by someone who's not endured what you have. Don't worry, over-intellectualize or obsess about it. Just enjoy. Revel in your "normalcy". Pretty soon your "normal" will be normal.
Give yourself time to settle down. Your new normalcy isn't an illusion. Don't be afraid. You won't build a tolerance. You won't revert to the bad old days. How screwed up is it that I feel the need to tell you not to be afraid of your new energy and positive outlook? So, take it from me, a three-year patient of suboxone therapy. You're not in a dream or living an illusion. These days are the first days of the rest of your life. Revel in them. This is for real.
I'd love to chat with you. You have my phone number: (757)672-8082. If I don't answer, please leave me a return number. Let's talk.
Yes, I know your doctor. He's not only a special doctor, but a very special person as well. You deserve him and he's deserving of being in a position to help you. I'm thrilled that life has brought you together.
All the best,
Robert
|
Edited by - leeglegle on 12/21/2005 23:26:02 |
|
|
|
TLCMOM
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 23:56:19
|
| I am so glad to see that my post went through! Thank-you so much for responding. Not just responding but confirming that this is real. I have spend my first 7 days on suboxone praising God! Specifically for leading to a doc that understood. That had such compassion for my pain that awful day that he said come right in I can help you. I will back-track and share with you what my current addictologist suggested I do. After agreeing to treat me with suboxone due to my own suggestion and research on the drug,he told me that he didn't have an opening for 10 days. I was out "sick" from work(still in orientation to the position/hospital),Day #3 with no opiates in my system.Need I say more. When I asked,"What do I do in the mean time he non-chalantly responded,"Whatever you were doing before". Shocked,devastated,Done. Then God took over from there.I don't know how I mustered up the strength to even get in the truck. But something had to give. The rest is just a pure miracle! I am still in awe. I did have nausea for the first three days, couldn't sleep at night. I didn't want to sleep, I wanted to revel in my new found NORMALCY! He consequently dropped my dose to a half a pill (4mg) and I was willing to drop down! I didn't feel the need to lie to stay on the higher dose like I would have with the opiates. I was thrilled when he told me that if I took opiates they would be blocked. I am actually enjoying work for the first time in my life! I am so excited to share with this circle of friends. I am so not a "It's all about me" girl. I want to hear about others and share my compassion and learn from everyone.Thank you for allowing me to rant and rave right now and telling me not to apologize because there is a since of guilt and you helped me to realize that that is probably a result of my comorbid disease in that I falsely was feeling unworthy of this normalcy. OK I'm just going to say it....DOWN RIGHT HAPPINESS! |
|
|
|
Phoenix
Senior Member
USA
579 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2005 : 23:59:08
|
Hey Robert:
Got your message when I got home from shopping. Thanks for the call and the nice words. I don't know if you read the posts, but Tony went to see the Doc today and it went well. I think, most likely, his induction will be Friday. I'll keep you posted. His Doctor said the first experience was way off and that when he leaves his office he'll be feeling good. Tony really likes him so it's all good.
I try to be neutral because I am now understanding more of the mindset of the "addict" and I can certainly give my side of the story. When you combine the two, it is an interesting neutrality.
Judy |
|
|
|
Jake
Senior Member
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 09:09:06
|
TLCMOM,
Welcome! It’s nice to have another professional in the medical field here. I too had depression. People who haven't experienced it don't realize how debilitating it is. Dick Cavet did and once explained..."its like if there was a magic wand on the other side of the room that would make all of your problems disappear, its doesn't seem worth the bother to get up and get it" Suboxone freed me from that depression and for me personally any dose was just as effective even 1/2mg.(could just be me)I've since stopped treatment and am fine, only normal occasional blues, nothing like before. If the depression came back I would feel OK with staying on Sub for life.
Sounds like you have a good doctor who understands Bupe and doesn’t stigmatize..congrates!
One side effect I had was constipation and found that docusate sodium worked great.
Glad you’re here,
Jake
|
|
|
|
TLCMOM
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 13:47:11
|
Thank you so much Jake for the warm welcome. I have not had the constipation side effect,and since I dropped my dose to 4mg I have not experienced anymore nausea/vomiting,still having a hard time getting to sleep at night. My doc was aware that I had a prescription for trazodone prior to suboxone so he told me I could increase my dose and now I can fall asleep and stay asleep for the entire night but I am shutting my alarm clock off in the morning without even realizineg it and have made myself late to work a couple of times. This really concerns me because I don't want to mess up at work. Any suggestions for me? I still get a pit in my stomach. Hard to explain it is like a aching dread feeling and it seems to start around 3pm everyday. Depression had it's clutches around me pretty much all of my life. Suboxone has lifted it! Hope it's permanent. Is it like anti-depressants in that over time your system becomes immune to it and depression can come back? I actually only took a half of a half a 8mg subox this am and thought I would take the other 2mg at 3pm and see how I do with splitting up the 4mg. Do you think this was a good idea? Thanks again and if you ever want to chat feel free to call me at 757-817-2211 seems like we have a lot in common. It is nice to have people that I can talk to that understand the disease.
Wendy |
|
|
|
Jake
Senior Member
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 12/22/2005 : 16:18:57
|
Wendy,
Actually as I remember the constipation was only when I was over 8mgs. I do know a few people who felt “a burst of energy” when they took their meds and could not sleep. They switched to early in the morning and it helped. Someone else was prescribed Ambien for sleep and that worked for them. There are a lot of people who like to split their dose. It’s recommended that you take it once a day so that there is less reinforcing of the pleasure circuit, but the people I know that have done it have been successful. I think if you feel there is some benefit to splitting it, it won’t hurt. The whole time I was on Suboxone it didn’t have a diminishing effect, I didn’t get “used” to it. I did get used to anti-depressants they would work a little for about 6 months. I hope it keeps working for you!
Jake
|
|
|
|
TLCMOM
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2005 : 06:31:36
|
Jake,
I only got the sinking feeling I was telling you about for a split second yesterday. It was right around 4pm and I took the other 2mg and didn't experience it again. I was thinking about it this am and I remember my doc making the comment after induction that I would feel even better in a week. So I don't know whether it was splitting the dose that helped or what the doc said. Tell me about your experience in the beginning and how long you have been on suboxone.
Wendy |
|
|
|
gwen
Senior Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2005 : 07:31:06
|
| hi wendy, and welcome! congratulations on your new normal! i had to stop taking the bupe past late afternoon or else i couldn't sleep. so i take my full dose (12, soon to be less) in the morning. i had taken trazadone also, and whew! it is hard to wake up from, i'm with you on that one! but since i've stopped the afternoon or later dosing, and exercise - try to at least walk briskly (gets a little harder in the cold northeast these days) every day, i've not really had that problem. i wonder if that lunestra i see advertised on the tv would work? it's touted as non-narcotic. i don't know anything about it, except from what i see on the ads. it may be a kinder wake up than the trazadone. i didn't have the pit in the stomach, but as you wrote, it may just dissipate over time as you get used to being yourself again. isn't that a great feeling??? and yes, it is the only thing that i have found to really help my depression. :) peace- gwen |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2005 : 08:22:22
|
OpD:
Howdy neighbor! I've been busy and no time to respond. I hope to write to you tonight.
Hope all is well.
Peace,
Robert |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/23/2005 : 22:00:12
|
Hello,
I'm new to this site. I just spoke with Robert for a litle while about suboxen and depression.
I'll tell you a little about myself, I'm a 42yo wife and mother of two. I've was sober for 14 years. About 5 years ago I was prescribed vics for headaches which I took and became addicted quickly. I tried to get off several times but was extremly depressed. This past September I went to rehab for my third time they gave me suboxen. Within minutes I felt normal I could'nt believe it no more depression what a miracle. I left detox and immediately felt like s***. A friend of mine told about a doc who prescribed suboxen I got an appointment immediately. I started taking the suboxen and again felt normal it's been two months now and have never felt better. I just wanted to write and share that. And I'll do whatever I need to do to get the word out to the right people. Just let me know what I can do.
Thanks
connieZ |
|
|
|
Mike
Advanced Member
1959 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 12:40:19
|
Hi ConnieZ,
welocome, curious, what dose are you on?
Mike |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 14:21:10
|
| HI, MY DOSE IS 20MG A DAY |
|
|
|
boxermama
Senior Member
USA
150 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 19:17:43
|
| i'm on 6 mg of suboxone a day. i've had major depression for years. i've been on 300 mg of Effexor for 5 years. i wish that suboxone could be used for depression. i have never felt so normal in my life. |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 20:35:43
|
| Hopefully it can be used for depression, I've read alot of what Robert has wrote and it seems he has done some research into this subject. I know Yale New Haven hospital is doing a study on it and also Dr Walter Ling in California is to. My plan right now is to stay on suboxen indefinetly. My doctor is in no rush to take me off. If he does I'll find another doctor who will prescribe it for me. There seems to be alot of doctors in this part of the country prescribing suboxen. So if I have to I'll go from one to another. |
|
|
|
SomeDayBFree
Senior Member
USA
254 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 22:22:40
|
I am very curious as to what dosage seems to be commonly used and effective for depression. I realize that it could be quite different for each individual, however I am inclined to think it might be higher than that needed to merely stave off cravings.
My first experience with Suboxone began in May 2004 and the relief I received from nearly life long resistant depression was simply miraculous. I was at my best taking 4mg per day. That was better than at 6mg and better than at 2mg. Unfortunately, due to my own internally placed pressures, I opted to stop taking it and began a slow wean and finally ceased in March 2005. The depression returned fairly quickly(no surprise...) and I relapsed a few weeks later. This relapse was relatively short, but "hard and heavy." Much more so (nearly 3 times more) than my previous 3 or so years of abuse. When I returned to Sub in early November, my intent was to do a short detox only - then I found this site along with significantly more data on the drug than I had been able to find previously. I also learned that a significant number of other people as well, were finding relief from serious depression by using Suboxone.
I changed my plans and decided to stay on it indefinately. However, I have found that although I am doing well physically and the cravings are controlled, I feel as though I may need more than 4mg this time to deal adequately with the depression. What I am curious about is whether the rapid and significant increase in the use of my DOC during that 6 month period, may have increased the amount of Suboxone that is needed for an optimum antidepressant effect? There is absolutely no doubt that it helps, but I'm wondering if I should "up the ante" a bit? I don't have another appointment with my physician for 6 weeks now, but I know that he wouldn't have a problem with me taking more. He is very proactive and feels strongly that buprenorphine is underutilized. He is also the one who shared with me initially that I might well be just the kind of person that would benefit from management of depression with bupe - he was absolutely right!
So - I would really like to know if anyone else finds a correlation between the severity of their former drug misuse and the current dosage of Sub that is adequately managing depression?
Most certainly, if any of our physicians could provide any enlightenment, it would also be most appreciated.
Thanks!
SomeDayBFree |
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 22:45:39
|
This forum is probably the most warmhearted and caring internet community I've ever seen. So much for the old 'junkie' stereotypes!
A few thoughts:
The reason buprenorphine works so well as an antidepressant isn't due to dopamine regulation, but mostly because it helps correct the depressed patient's endogenous opioid (endorphins, dynorphins, enkephalins) deficiency. Everybody in the world has naturally occurring chemicals in their brain called endorphins. Endorphins are nearly identical to (narcotic) opiates like Morphine & heroin, but especially oxycodone. Believe it or not, your own body's endorphins are 48 times more powerful than heroin. We all need endorphins to regulate mood, and keep from getting intolerably depressed. Some people, like myself, have an endorphin deficiency. This is a torturous, often fatal condition... but can be easily treated. We merely need to take endorphins (=opiates) from an external source to feel 'normal' like everyone else.
This is from the website of an American clinic with branches in three cities:
"Underproduction or over-removal (severe re-uptake) of these endogenous opioids can be the cause of many psychiatric disorders ranging from Bipolar Personality disorders to major depressive disorders that often times manifest themselves in severe drug abuse. Unbeknownst to them, these patients use opioid medications either illicit or pharmaceutical because they are compelled to attempt to replace the endorphins, dynorphins, and enkephalins (endogenous opioids) that naturally occur in their systems at insufficient levels."
Summary:
A) Some people have insufficient cerebral endorphin production.
B) This causes refractory depression.
C) The condition should be treated by external opioid intake, to remedy the patient's endorphin levels. Thebaine based opioids in particular are preferable to morphine or codeine based products.
In the near future, every single med student in every free society worldwide will be taught this A,B,C process. The faster the knowledge I'm sharing here spreads, the sooner melancholia & suicide rates plummet drastically across the developed world. Proof has been established. All that's needed now is acceptance.
Anyone with refractory depression resulting from endorphin deficiency, has no choice but to be addicted to opiates. Getting us 'clean' is getting us dead. (Although technically, regular buprenorphine use, along with complete abstinence from other opioids could be considered 'clean' to many people.) I know it's an iconoclastic concept that not all 'drug abuse' is unhealthy, but in a decade or two it will be common knowledge among medical professionals that what I'm telling you today is 100% correct.
I want others with this condition to be aware of their real options. I'm in alot better shape than people with the same condition, but who are painfully unaware of the endorphin-depression-opioid connection.
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/26/2005 : 23:46:57
|
Hi Mom:
Addiction is usually (more frequently than not?) accompanied by another mental or psycho/social disorder, medically referred to as a comorbid disorder.
I’ve previously written that my depression long preceded my addiction. But, in a linear fashion as my depression progressed, so too, my drug abuse progressed. They were trains on parallel tracks gaining speed together, but ultimately colliding in a full-blown train wreck called addiction.
Mom, I think we have similar stories. I know that my depression led to my opiates addiction. It’s a chicken-egg thing where I am convinced that, for me, the “egg” of a brain disease called depression came first. Then, it gave birth to the ugly “chicken” of addiction.
This is a circular phenomenon. Depression leads to Addiction; or, conversely, Addiction leads to Depression. Everyone with this very common phenomenon likely understands what I mean.
Suboxone is an addiction medication that, for me, is effective because it takes both the “egg” of depression along with the “chicken” of addiction out of the equation. Hence, it is a miraculously effective opiates addiction medication.
A BLOODY, F’IN’ MIRACLE!
That’s why I will likely take it until the end of my days. I suspect that this same dynamic may apply to you. Take it for addiction as long as necessary, in the minimum dosage necessary. If your depression should cause you to descend back into that dark, ugly pit of despair, relapse into opiates addiction will be the likely result.
Do you agree? Honestly, if you don’t agree, please tell me because if I’m off the mark I want to know why.
ConnieZ: First, thanks for our phone conversations.
I’m gratified you seem to have benefited from our conversations as well as your conversation with the professional who called you at my request. He’s one hell of a humanitarian, isn’t he? Both our lives are better because of his humble, but informed, advice.
It is part of the job of this website to spread the science of sub treatment. The science appears to suggest that the longer the duration of treatment, the greater the likelihood of success. So, there’s no need to rush to abstinence from bupe . There’s a bogeyman argument out there that one must “detox” from Suboxone within a very short time or one addiction is being traded for another. Permit me the unscientific but descriptive one word response: Bull****!
No one argues that a diabetic must “detox” from insulin ASAP to best “cure” or to best “manage” that disease.
In closing, I think you have the right approach. Take your time and revel in your new-found health. There is plenty of time after which your experience and the expertise of professionals will guide you to what is ultimately best approach for you.
I hope we talk again soon. I was honored by you phone call.
In the meantime, it’s off to Fla. for my Uncle’s funeral. Let’s talk again after I return.
Cheers,
Robert
SomeDay:
I’ve enjoyed the honesty of your posts. This is a site that deals in facts, not apocryphal emotion.
I’m sure the professionals will respond to your inquiry.
Peace.
ReardenMetal:
This site and topic sometimes moves too fast to inegest fully. I speed-read your post. On that basis, welcome. From what I was able to quickly absorb, you appear have a lot to offer.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 00:00:03
|
ReardenMetal:
I just re-read your post. Wow!
I've learned a lot in the past few months. My original reference to dopamine is somewhat inapposite and inaccurate. Your explanation is far more scientifically based and accurate. Thank you.
I look forward to better absorb your observations when I return from Florida. No question but that you are a valuable resource for this site.
Thanks for taking the time to add to our discussion.
Robert |
Edited by - leeglegle on 12/27/2005 00:02:26 |
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 00:34:39
|
Hi Robert,
We've both come to many identical conclusions, and we've both reached these understandings the hard way.
Regarding your quote: " There’s a bogeyman argument out there that one must “detox” from Suboxone within a very short time or one addiction is being traded for another. Permit me the unscientific but descriptive one word response: Bull****!
No one argues that a diabetic must “detox” from insulin ASAP to best “cure” or to best “manage” that disease."
I wrote essentially the same thing two months ago, here:
elitetrader
Literally anybody can get addicted to heroin or oxy, and you don't need an 'addictive personality' to become a junkie. All it takes is using the drug every single day for a period of weeks- and boom! You're an addict who will do whatever is needed to fuel your habit to keep from getting junk sick. This much, I'm sure you already know.
Now comes the part you don't fully understand yet: Many junkies (possibly a minority of them, but I don't know for sure) gravitate to strong opiates because they suffer from an endorphin deficiency. They suffer serious suicidal depression, and the only known way at this point in time to bring their endorphins up to healthy levels is through opiate use. They are much better off with a needle in their arm than without one. (That is, assuming the only two choices are heroin or nothing... which is not the case with today's pharmacological advancements.)
Now here is the biggest flaw in 'drug rehab': It is commonly accepted that opiate dependency is the problem, and methadone (or much better, bupe) can be used to help the addict kick his habit, with the goal of eventually getting him completely off ALL the drugs. That last part is the major flaw here, and I know you will believe me eventually. If you 'successfully' get an endorphin deficient junkie clean, the underlying problem, which is severe depression caused by endorphin deficiency, will obviously return. The now clean patient will suffer severe 'untreatable' melancholia, be far more miserable than he was while he was using, and inevitably will either get back on opiates or kill himself.
The solution? It doesn't have to be a lifetime prescription to heroin or oxy! Buprenorphine (much preferably without the fascist mandated naloxone additive- which means subutex and NOT suboxone) , which won't even get him high, is all that is needed.
|
|
|
|
Phoenix
Senior Member
USA
579 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 01:01:28
|
Metal:
I'm curious with this new "spin" on endorphins. Do you think that cravings are not actually for the opiate itself, but rather the replacement of the missing endorphins? I know Tony started using drugs at a very young age to ward off the feelings he felt due to the "abuse" his father inflicted on him, his escape led him from pot to heroin. Do you suppose that he craves narcotics because when he goes off (gets clean), he can't stay that way because he has a deficiency, or because his body is so used to taking them that it ruined his endorphin producing and now he has to have an external source to fulfill his brain's needs? I know he is confused as to why he continually has cravings even after he has periods of time "clean." The chemistry aspect of this has me curious. We won't know for sure until he begins Suboxone how he feels, but it would really make me (a non addict) understand the disease better. Damn, I better check into medical schools now so I can enter the field and help change the stigma of addiction.
Could it be it's just a behavior and not a medical condition? I mean, 10+ years of using narcotics, could his body just be reacting to the absence of the drug as opposed to being a deficiency of some sort? The cravings are what always brings him back, anxious to hear your take on this.
Judy |
|
|
|
leeglegle
Member
USA
1200 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 01:40:59
|
Rearden Metal:
I want to keep this exchange going but I have to be at the airport at 5:00 am EST. You’re stimulating me such that I can’t let go and get some sleep. With no irony meant, thank you. Really. If you weren’t so stimulating I’d be asleep right now. This MUST be my last post of this morning or I’ll screw up my uncle’s eulogy.
So, let’s make a deal that you won’t post for another hour so I can get some sleep. You’ve enthralled me and I can’t let go. Some mercy. Please! I ‘m looking forward to learning more from you. The problem is that I must wake up at @4:00 am, EST (in @ two hrs.).
I read your latest response, and am overwhelmed with the need to immediately respond. No can do! I’m promising myself that I won’t look at this site until Thursday p.m., to avoid being stimulated by your information, thereby disengaging my need to respond.
In closing, I’ve carefully read your posts and its links. I‘m in complete agreement.
I think. If I haven't fallen asleep.
Cheerio until Thursday night or sometime Friday.
Robert
|
|
|
|
rac1210
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 08:23:58
|
I am amazed the level of intelligence at this forum. I read the post by others at these sites and realize how many people have suffered due to the ignorance and arrogance of the medical community. I read years ago a study done in England that showed Buprenorphine to be effective in treating depression and now I am convinced that there is clearly a place for this drug in not only dealing with opioid dependency but also refractory depression. The proof is in the pudding...look at the folks on this site who have suffered for years with depression ultimately leading ot opioid addiction and all its negative consequences and then suddenly started Sub and now are functioning, happy, productive individuals who have regained the joy of living. How can our profession argue this point and why is it any different if a patient is taking Sub versus any other antidepressant. Sub and depression should be receiving more research funding as I am certain there is a clearly a therapeutic place for Sub in treating the thousands of patients who have failed to respond to traditional antidepressant meds. All of you sharing your stories is making a difference in helping folks like me better understand the role of depression and opioid use. It is your stories and intelligent observations regarding your own mental health that is motivating me to better understand the future role of medical management in treating opioid dependency. I am of the new school of addictionology and I believe this disease must first be medically managed and then be addressed with psychotherapy. Keep up the good work all and thank you for helping me to better understand the disease of addiction.
|
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 18:01:34
|
Hi Judy,
First of all, I've read many of your posts and you have me rooting for Tony to quit his mainlining & lying.
"Do you think that cravings are not actually for the opiate itself, but rather the replacement of the missing endorphins? I know Tony started using drugs at a very young age to ward off the feelings he felt due to the "abuse" his father inflicted on him, his escape led him from pot to heroin. Do you suppose that he craves narcotics because when he goes off (gets clean), he can't stay that way because he has a deficiency, or because his body is so used to taking them that it ruined his endorphin producing and now he has to have an external source to fulfill his brain's needs? I know he is confused as to why he continually has cravings even after he has periods of time "clean." The chemistry aspect of this has me curious.
----> While I can't give you a definite answer, a few questions can help determine if he's (semi-properly) self medicating clinical depression, or if he has a true addiction problem:
* Does he have a history of frequent suicidal thoughts? Spends hours contemplating & planning his suicide? Commenting on the absolute futility of life, that he has no will to live, and death would be a relief? Has he tried to justify his own suicide to you, trying to explain why this course of action would be best? Is he jealous of people who die? (An answer of yes, implies depression)
* Is/was he a cutter? Any habit of burning himself with cigarettes on purpose? (Yes- implies depression)
*Does he ever just lie there, too depressed to even get up? (Yes- implies depression)
*Is he bipolar, or is he undiagnosed as bipolar, but you suspect he's had manic episodes? (implies depression)
* Generally speaking, Does he tend to function better when he's using (implies depression)
, or when he's fully detoxed & clean ?(implies compulsive addiction)
* Has he ever developed a daily habit for non-opioid substances? (implies addiction)
* Does he have a tendency to 'binge'- using a much greater amount than his usual dose, in an effort to get high? (implies addiction)
*Does he often use more smack than he knows he can physically handle, causing himself to vomit? (implies addiction)
Judy, if his true issue is depression resulting from an endorphin/dynorphin/enkephalin deficiency/over re-uptake, his detox & maintenance on bupe should go very smoothly. This is the situation most familiar to me, as I've lived it. Up until very recently (I'm on bupe now, it seems to work as well as oxy- except for the side effects being even worse) I had a 40-60 mg/day oxy habit. I'd never 'binge', I'd just responsibly use the minimum dose possible to keep me out of the dark hellhole of suicidal depression.
At no point did I ever have an 'opiate addiction problem'. I had an opiate addiction solution. Switching from oxy to bupe has had very little overall effect on me, except for the fact that I'm no longer constantly worried about having to find and buy my life saving medication from unreliable black market sources at $1.50 to $1.55/mg-when I was lucky enough to even find any.
If Tony's case is more of a pure addiction problem without a bona fide medical need, I honestly can't relate much to that, and many others here know far more than I do about addiction psychology & treatment. Either way, best of luck to you... |
Edited by - Frozen on 12/27/2005 18:03:32 |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 18:02:39
|
Hi All,
I just gone done calling many doctors in my area. I found won very close that is willing to treat me with suboxen for my depression. So when I'm done with the maintainence with my current doc he said to give him a call and he'd be happy to help me indefinetly.
I found it so interesting reading the current post about endorphines etc. We really have to get the word out about how this medication helps people with depression.
If anyone would like to call me and discuss this please do at 203-394-2932.
Thanks to all,
connieZ |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 18:13:49
|
It's me again. If anyone knows of any websites or articles about this subject please let me know.
thanks |
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 18:22:38
|
Hi Connie,
I have the highest respect for physicians willing to prescribe bupe as an antidepressant, but remember that the prohibition enforcement goons don't see it that way.
Buprenorphine can only legally be prescribed to treat an 'opiate addiction problem'. In order to protect brave doctors from serious government oppression ( aapsonline and house.gov ), it's best to be careful who you tell that your doctor is prescribing bupe for depression. I know you haven't posted his/her name or anything like that, these are just pre-emptive words of caution.
It's me again. If anyone knows of any websites or articles about this subject please let me know.
The only website I've found which is solely dedicated to informing people about the opioid-depression- endogenous opioid connection is http://www.opioids.com/ |
Edited by - Frozen on 12/27/2005 18:31:27 |
|
|
|
connieZ
New Member
USA
11 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 19:59:22
|
I understand that doc's can only prescribe for opiod addiction I am an opiod addict. This doctor agrees that if you are going to go out and use again because the depression is so bad, that we'd be better off staying of suboxen. I do not plan to do anything to jepordize this doc's liscense.
conniez. |
|
|
|
Phoenix
Senior Member
USA
579 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 20:16:20
|
Hi RMetal:
The answer to all of those questions I would say is NO. He never has spoken of suicide, as a matter of fact, when he had himself admitted into a psych ward to get clean, it nearly killed him to tell them he was thinking of suicide. He could barely get the words out and choked on them, never inflicted wounds on himself, or has he ever just laid around unable to function. In addition, he has never once spoken of the futility of life itself. He has been doing drugs of some sort since he was 12. His father is a bastard and has mistreated him all of his life even until last year. They used to work together, his father would do everything possible to keep him under his control. Even to this day Tony seems to need the nurturing of his father which he knows he will never get but on some level still seeks. He also had an ulcer diagnosed at 9 years old. Tony has no fear, none at all. I don't think he's depressed, but I found your post fascinating when it talked about the endorphin deficiency. I mean, Tony has been clean before but he has cravings that he can't shake. I'm wondering if perhaps his brain is deficient in the endorphins and hence since he has always filled the craving with opiates, perhaps he's never going to be able to control that if his brain is not making the endorphins it needs. The brain will always crave thus causing the physical craving that cause him to go back to a destructive lifestyle. If Suboxone can fulfill the craving for endorphin-like needs, perhaps this is what he needs. Is it possible that he will always need the endorphin substitute? Is that why he continually goes back to that, or conversly, is it just that he is addicted to the habit? I know some of this rhetoric seems distorted as I'm trying to piece it all togther in a cohesive response, but since I really don't understand it's not really as clear as I'd like to be.
Thanks for "rooting" for us, the support gets me through the day.
Judy |
|
|
|
Mike
Advanced Member
1959 Posts |
Posted - 12/27/2005 : 20:20:50
|
Correct me if I’m wrong, the way I understand it, it is not illegal for a doc to prescribe off label but it is illegal for the drug company to promote off label use.
Here is a letter from the DEA outlining their views on off label prescribing of Suboxone/Subutex for pain. I think the same holds true for depression. http://naabt.org/links/DEA_Bup_for_pain_letter.pdf
Insurance companies on the other hand can choose no to cover off label use and the physicians’ liability is increased when then prescribe for a condition other then what the drug was FDA approved for.
Mike
|
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 01:43:00
|
And how about THIS:
http://www.reason.com/0408/fe.ms.dr.shtml
The absolute worst junkies of all, are those addicted to Power. The politicians and petty bureaucrats whose biggest satisfaction in life comes from forcing others to do as they say. |
|
|
|
Mike
Advanced Member
1959 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 09:31:41
|
and to think they can prescribe as many oxys as they like without any 8 hour course or 30 limit. I agree it seems backwards.
Mike
|
|
|
|
theatercat
Active Member
54 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 13:23:47
|
| Skipped 2 days of not taking sub. Early into the 3rd day feeling miserable. The night before could not sleep at all. Sweating, restless. I am only taking 2 milligrams a day. Should I resign myself to the fact that I will be on this forever? Its just so great for my depression. I also have a bad knee, that has an almost completely torn meniscus, that the oxys really helped. I am concerned that if I ever choose to have the surgery will the pain killers they use right after surgery work? Will I have to discontinue the sub for a period of of time before surgery? |
|
|
|
Frozen
Senior Member
USA
732 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 17:07:04
|
Judy, modern medical science has a pretty thorough understanding of every organ in the human body except one: The brain.
It would be reasonable to conclude that Tony has the disease of addiction. However, you still can't rule out an underlying endorphin/dynorphin/enkephalin deficiency as the cause of this addiction. At this point in time, nobody can really provide definitive scientific answers to these questions. |
|
|
|
Phoenix
Senior Member
USA
579 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 17:55:01
|
Thanks for the input, I intend to ask his doctor if he can investigate this further once Tony is insured.
Judy |
|
|
|
TLCMOM
Starting Member
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2005 : 23:57:03
|
Hi everyone. I have been listening to all of you and learning from you! Gwen thank you for your kindness. I am still feeling well. Physically about 100%,emotionally 80 maybe 85%. I went back to my doc yesterday and I told him about that pit in my stomach or "sinking feeling" if you will. He explained that what I am probably experiencing is a little refractory depression. He asked me if it felt like withdrawal. I told him that it is not like I want to use or anything but I sometimes feel late in the day like I am coming out of my skin. He has decided to increase my dose from 4mg to 6mg. I took the increased dose today still had the feeling but I kept busy through it. I think now that I am feeling better I am doing a lot of thinking about things I miss. I have been married since I was 16 years old and I am so used to having a partner to share things with. I was surrounded by my close knit family over Christmas. Then when it was time to go home and put things away,try on new stuff, check out what Santa brought me more thoroughly I realized how much I hate being alone. My daughter was out late doing the boyfriend family thing so it was just little ol' me. I refuse to classify how I am feeling as depression. I just feel a little sad. I with Gods lead am running my life more efficiently,enjoying work like never before but I am dealing with such loneliness. I have been asked to go on a date with two gentlemen this weekend (one at a time of course)and you would think that I would be looking forward to it but I am scared. I am afraid because I am different. I mean the suboxone has changed me. I am healing. I know that the healing no matter how good the suboxone is going to take time but I am so ready to leave the weak,tired,addicted Wendy goodbye but somehow I feel like it will always be there,ready to attack. Anyone have any thoughts,or suggestions for this melancholy,confused,state I have found myself in. Again thank you for listening and I want to say that there is a loving empathetic aura to this group of people I feel blessed to be a part of it. Thank you all.
Wendy |
|
|
|
Mary
Advanced Member
USA
2380 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2005 : 11:25:14
|
| Hi Wendy. I find it's a tough time of year. The holidays also leave me a bit sad. And, as you said, you've had a partner for a long time, and this is the time most of us want to be with someone special. So I think it's natural to feel sad. This is my first holiday season in years not on H, and it is pretty tough, and I'm alone - boyfriend-wise, and actually DON'T WANT to self-medicate to the max. Where before I could just hide and do so. Best thing to do is to keep busy as you did. Sometimes it's a bit scary to look inside ourselves and see who were hiding from. Wendy, you sound like a genuinely warm, nice woman, try not to be scared. It will get easier as time goes on. -And go on one of those dates!! :) What the heck! You might find a nice friend out of one of them. And keep writing, I'm glad you're here too! -Mary |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
buprenorphine and depression
Forum Locked
